Researcher Interview: Qualitative Study of Body Image Among Competitive Women Pole Dancers

Join the Essentials of Slink waitlist: https://mailchi.mp/slinkthroughstrength.com/essentials-of-slink 

In this episode of the Science of Slink podcast, host Dr. Rosy Boa engages in an enlightening conversation with researcher and pole dancer Nadia Ahadi (@psychpoleogy on IG) from the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences, The University of Melbourne, Melbourne. They delve into Nadia's recent qualitative study on body image among competitive women pole dancers, discussing key findings such as the emphasis on body functionality over appearance, the sense of community within the competitive pole space, and the role of autonomy and self-expression in empowerment. The episode also touches on the challenges of standardizing skill levels in pole dance, the complexities of body comparisons, and the impact of competition environments on body image. Nadia's insights draw from her own experiences as a pole dancer and her academic work at the University of Melbourne.

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview

00:23 New Membership Announcement: Essentials of Slink

02:11 Introducing Nadia Ahadi and Her Research

02:42 Nadia's Background in Pole Dancing and Research

05:12 Exploring the Competitive Pole Dance Scene in Australia

10:23 Research Methodologies and Theoretical Frameworks

22:13 Key Findings: Body Functionality and Community Support

37:46 Empowerment Through Autonomy and Personal Agency

44:25 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript: 

Rosy: [00:00:00] Hello, friends. I'm so excited to share this episode with you. One of my very favorite types of episodes to record, where I get to connect with a researcher who's worked on pole dance and they can share their findings with you.

And this was such a good discussion. We really dug into a lot of things and I think a lot of the stuff in here is gonna resonate with a lot of your experiences. So. Definitely stay tuned, but really quickly can borrow your ear for just a second before we get into it. Because speaking of evidence, I have been doing some surveys, I've been talking to a lot of folks trying to figure out how I can help people get more consistent in their home pole practice. You've, you've heard me say it before, you'll hear me say it again. You'll hear it from other fitness professionals. You'll hear it from exercise scientists. If you would like to achieve your goals, you need to show up consistently.

And one thing that I heard a lot was that my full membership Science of Slink, which at this point is six classes a week, if you do them all, is too much. And people wanted a smaller, more lightweight option. And it is [00:01:00] coming up. So the new membership is Essentials of Slink. It is just gonna be one hour a week.

You can come to the class live, you can come recorded. I'll have two time tracks one will be evening US time, and the other will be during the day US time slash evening, European time. And it'll be a little bit more affordable, less of a time commitment, a little bit more bite sized very easy for you to show up consistently.

You'll get the links to join live, you'll get reminders, you'll get the emails with the recordings. All of it's just gonna happen automatically, making it as frictionless as possible for you to have a structured, complete home pole practice that includes conditioning and fun and freestyle and community. So. If you're interested in learning more and you would like to lock in an exclusive discount for life you should join the wait list, which is in the description.

And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna talk your ear off. We're gonna get into this discussion with Nadia Ahadi which was fantastic, and I can't wait to hear y'all's thoughts on this. So definitely once you're done listening [00:02:00] drop a comment let me know. Have you run into some of the things that the pole dancers in Nadia's research ran into as well? Hmm. Interested to hear. All right, and I'll let you get into the episode.

Welcome to Science of Slink, the Evidence-based pole podcast. With me, your host, Dr. Rosy Boa of Slink Through Strength and very special guest today.

Nadia Ahadi, who is a pole dancer and researcher who just published a study, a Qualitative Study of Body Image Among Competitive Women Pole Dancers in Psychology Of Sports Exercise. I ran across it I was like, we gotta get one of these authors on here to talk about it.

And Nadia very kindly agreed to join me. So Nadia, do you wanna start off just telling us a little bit about your, your research background, why you're interested in this? And also, I know you're a pole dancer, so like a little bit about your, your pole background as well. 

Nadia: Thank you so much for having me, Rosy.

I am very a big fan of your work. I think what you're doing is really [00:03:00] cool. A little bit about my pole background I'll start off with is that I am start pole. At the end of 2020. So it's like during SmackDown, middle of the pandemic. I would say that it was such an interesting experience because, you know, we had to train with our masks on yet we didn't really have a lot of clothes on, which is wild.

But I think, you know, also reflecting on my family background, which is quite conservative, I initially thought I would feel a lot of shame around it. However, you know, I started with my sister as well and I think, that helped. Just, sharing our thoughts around recreational pole.

We both found that it was very empowering and I, we both felt like it's such a good space to explore, your body and be confident in it and be accepting of what it is. And I think before I started [00:04:00] Paul, I was a competitive gymnast. But I was only in the beginner levels of it.

That was such a stark contrast from Pole because that was a whole, environment of pressure and a lot of, comparisons with other athletes it's very different from Pole. And I think that was what inspired me to explore the research about Pole and, competitive pole land specifically.

I just graduated from my honors here last year, so I'm very new to research, but it was a very refreshing experience and, considering that old dance in the field of body image specifically isn't, it's still under researched. And I think that a lot of the.

Evidence on pole dance is based on recreational engagement and we don't have enough studies exploring women's experiences in competition specifically. So I guess that's why I'm passionate about it 

Rosy: Yeah, the one thing that you [00:05:00] brought up that I think it's important just to note you were only looking at women

and also you're looking at competitive dancers in Australia specifically? Yes. I don't think I mentioned this you, you do this work at the University of Melbourne. So do you wanna talk a little bit about the competition scene in Australia, because I know it's certainly from the US it's fairly different.

And I think for folks who are not super familiar with it it would probably be helpful to go into the discussion of research with that background. 

Nadia: Yeah, so that's a good question because personally I haven't actually been like participating in competition in the pole dance scene. But I have been a part of the audience for some of the competitions

and there's a lot of different like styles and genres you can do. There's like in-house competitions, like those that you do in studios, but there's also like the nation, like very more bigger scenes of competition. And you know, those tend to focus on, I [00:06:00] guess pulled sport if you could consider it as a genre.

But there's also more essential style exotic and. I didn't really capture what specifically the women in my research have competed in. But it was definitely a whole range of that, you know, like exotic, contemporary yeah, the whole gist. And I, I've only studied in Australia for a few years, but I think I know that it's definitely become really popular these days.

But that's why I also wanted to bring it into a research field because it's still not as explored in a public space, if that makes sense.

Rosy: Yeah, no, I think it's very helpful. And the competitions in Australia, would you say that it tends to be. Are there a very wide range of abilities?

Like, so someone who just started pole, like immediately compete, or is it a little bit more, once [00:07:00] you've achieved like a certain degree of technical vocabulary, that's when people tend to compete? 

Nadia: Hmm. So I think that you do get people who have just started their whole journey are competing in, mostly in studio competition. So I don't think they've really you know, done competitions outside of that space. I think it's a really good place to start with, I think, you know, with a whole sense of community. And just like comradery, you know, being around women who do pole, I think that does help you prepare for a competition.

But you do have competitions that have the title Amateur. And it is a tricky label because I think, you know, if you think about amateur, they're, you know, beginner levels, but some competitions do consider amateurs being more the, I guess, advanced and beyond that, if that makes sense. But it's not of a professional level, if that makes sense.

So it's still below a professional level. [00:08:00] So I think, again, a lot of different terminologies in the whole world, but I think it's a very diverse range of things that you can compete in. 

Rosy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's sort of like how, the Olympics are amateur athletes. Right.

Exactly where it's supposed to be. Yeah, exactly. Like like college football here in the US American football is like amateur athletes, but they're, you know, it's not that they're unskilled. Exactly. This is not the primary thing that they're being paid to do. Right? Like that's the professionals, where your income would come from.

And technically, I am a professional, right? Because exactly. I teach I am not, listen, I, I can't do it ayesha, except with my elbow, right? Like, I, I am not like at a you know, particularly advanced technical level, I would say just 'cause that's not, where my interest lies.

So I think it's really helpful to pull out the difference between like amateur and professional versus, what that says about technical vocabulary and sort of expectation of physicality. 

Nadia: Yeah, for sure. And I [00:09:00] think from my research itself we do include women who have, competed within the last year.

It is just a bit of a control thing. But we also include women who, I guess self-identify as being an intermediate level. And again, that is, I would say it's pretty vague. You can consider yourself being a beginner slash intermediate, but you can also be a more advanced level and still consider yourself.

As an intermediate, 

Rosy: yeah, it's, yeah. I mean, there's not a lot of stand, there are a lot of standards, but there's not a lot of standardization across pole. Right. Like, are you an intermediate dancer? If you can invert, I think some people would say no. Some people would say yes, right? Like, is that the, the bar?

Or is it like, are there specific movements? Is it about quality of movement? Is it about, you know, just time spent training? Is it about range of skills you have? Even if they don't have like, as high of a. Physicality required from them, question mark. It's definitely, hard to [00:10:00] standardize for, and as a movement discipline, especially if you compare to something like gymnastics, which is extremely codified internationally it's much more challenging to to compare apples to apple.

So I appreciate the research challenge there. 

Nadia: Gotta be transparent, right? 

Rosy: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, but part of research, right? Is that as well, you know talking about like what you did with as much speci specificity as possible. Exactly.

Speaking of let's dive into this, this study a little bit.

So it, it's a qualitative study which means, you know, the, the data is not numerical in nature. Just for anyone who needs that reminder. And I think. As someone with a, with a social sciences background, I think a lot of times qualitative studies can get a bad rap as being like, oh, it's easier.

Anyone who's done substantial work with qualitative data knows that that is in fact not the case. If you can count things and, you know, stick them into your statistical models, that actually tends to be a much simpler process. So do you wanna talk a little bit about the research methodologies you used [00:11:00] and how you collected this data?

Nadia: Yeah. So again, I do agree that quantitative studies do get kind of a bad rap. So I do think because this is such a. Niche population in the field of research, it is important, first of all to just get a better understanding of the processes and experiences that women go through in the competitive pole space and obviously being under research.

I think that's a good point to start with. And I did use I know there's a lot of different analysis frameworks of qualitative work out there, but what our research focused on was reflexive, thematic analysis, which is basically integrating you know, as a researcher, your subjectivity and I guess, your biases about a certain topic, but obviously the right amount and not, you know, getting too influenced with the data, if that makes sense. But yeah, using your subjectivity to [00:12:00] integrate yourself with, the data and you know, the interviews I've used semi-structured interviews and just to see where some experiences can flow with one another and, you know, make sense as themes.

So towards the end of the results we do generate themes out of the interviews. And that's the way we present our data. And the frame framework I used was contextualism. I'm getting a bit jargony with this, but it essentially just means that, you know, with, with everything some truth of whatever it is exists out there.

But because. We are experiencing things from different contexts. We have to acknowledge that context, influence how we understand the world and make meaning out of it. So I think that's really relevant in Pole because it's a very contextualized space and it's very specific. So I guess in that [00:13:00] sense we have to understand which experiences are unique from a population and which are consistent amongst people's experiences and things like that. But yeah, you know, I think I think after the interview stage you do code data. It's a bit different from, you know, quantitative data, but you do, have to structure like certain parts of the transcripts from your interviews and, you know, highlight key points out of it and also interpret it on different levels.

So for instance, you're kind of labeling a certain phrase and you're restructuring it in a way that makes sense to your research and finding out what exactly they're trying to say. If there's, you know, any underlying meanings out of it. So it's, as someone who's new to that, it was very tricky at the start because, you know, which, what else can I extract from whatever they're saying?

[00:14:00] But I think you know, it's very in depth and it's a very lengthy process, but I think it should be appreciated as well. 

Rosy: Yeah. Absolutely. So just sort of like to reiterate what you said. You're trying to pick apart the things that are.

Specific about this population, right? You're not looking for like, oh, I am a dancer. And these are things that apply to all dancers. You're looking for, what are the things that are specific to pole dancers who are competing. So you're trying to identify what's unique about that population, and then also you're trying to identify what's showing up over and over again.

What's a theme that people are bringing up continuously. Yeah. And then you're trying to identify where in the discussion people bring that up. And then sort of like. And you, I mean, you can't do like a little bit of qualitative stuff, like what percentage of participants mentioned negative body and image.

Yeah. Like, it's not necessarily all just sort of reorganizing and summarizing text, but that's sort of the main, mm-hmm. Main thrust is you're trying to take this series of conversations and extract [00:15:00] the, the relevant information and then synthesize it in a way where you identify the things that seem to be pretty common in this population.

Nadia: Yeah, and I think what's important as well in that process is if a researcher is using certain theories to, frame their results or, just a general knowledge behind the research question. So I did use, I believe it was three theories. You know, social comparison and embodiment theories, and I'm forgetting the theory, but those are the theories that I've used throughout my research.

So I think kind of integrating that into data analysis is very important as well. 

Rosy: That's what makes it, you know, research as you're, you're part of this intellectual tradition and you did, you mentioned embodiment theory and Yeah, embodiment is such like a nothing buzzword online in like movement spaces.

Yeah. So [00:16:00] do you wanna just clarify when you say embodiment theory, specifically in this psychological research framework, what does that mean to you? 

Nadia: Yeah. Yeah, I do agree. My understanding of embodiment is how you're using your body to engage with the world and make sense out of it.

And I think one of the theories I focused on is the developmental theory of embodiment, which explains three domains or factors that influence. How you feel embodied. So one is related to physical power. So it's how are you using your physical capacity and your own body to make sense of yourself and the world.

And there's also mental freedom, which is, if. You're engaging with things that make you feel liberated emotionally, and there's [00:17:00] social power as well, which is, are you belonging into a community that helps you support, those things like emotional liberation and, empowerment. And I think those.

Are very key themes in the field of pole dance. I think, if you're looking at the research on recreational pole, you do see those three key themes emerging from the results. And, people feel like there. More confident with their skills and the ability to move their body.

So also one thing that relates to embodiment is the word body functionality, which essentially just means using your body to feel and experience. But what the. Research has found is that people were more appreciative about their physical abilities rather than their physical appearance.[00:18:00] 

So they're more in tune with what skills are they gonna try accomplish in the class or things like that. And I think that in itself is. Very empowering and you also get a sense of comradery and sisterhood in the field of recreational pole. And you do see, I'll, I'll get into this later, but you do see spoiler alerts, similarities emerging from competitive post spaces as well.

I just remembered, the other theory I wanted to say was objectification. And this is usually the opposite of embodiment. So, you know, objectification just means when you're reducing yourself to an object, and often this would be a sexual object, like you're seeing yourself as a sexual tool for.

Other people's pleasure, often heterosexual men. But there are research evidence out there that [00:19:00] find that, you know, if you are engaging with recreational pull you exhibit higher levels of embodiment and lower levels of sexual sexual objectification. So I think that's really interesting.

Rosy: Yeah. Whenever I think about objectification, there's a Margaret Atwood quote, and I'm not gonna say it correctly, but it's basically like in every woman, very, very reductive view of gender, but in every woman there is a straight man watching her, right?

Like, and the idea is that when you were experiencing your body, you were experiencing your body through the lens of an outside male observer who is observing you as a sexual object. 

And I think also, you know, being voyered by someone else is what? What I'm reminded of when I think about objectification, you know, it's always portrayed in media and from like films and whatever popular culture there is today, it's still really relevant. I do think that we're sort of transgressing from that [00:20:00] practice. There are still people out there that do think and practice objectification in that sense, so yeah. 

Yeah. And I do think it is possible to do pole dance in a self objectifying way.

Mm-hmm. And I speaking of sort of populations of pole dancers who have been understudied I really think there's just not been as much work done on strippers specifically. And I know that stripping is very different place to place. It's very different in the US than it is in Europe, than it is in Australia, I'm sure.

And I, I just wanna acknowledge that even though recreational and competitive dancers may have one relationship to their bodies that pole dance brings out someone who is engaged in sex work is probably gonna have a different relationship. But also sex workers are a special population, which, and I'm sure you know this but just for the listeners generally tend to be much more challenging to do research on because there's a potential that engaging in research could be harmful to those participants. So it's a much more rigorous process to attempt a project on a population like [00:21:00] that. Which doesn't mean it's not worth doing, it's just it requires a lot of care and time and additional effort.

Nadia: Yeah, for sure. And I think also like thinking about caring for participants itself, I remember having to make sure that my participants are comfortable talking about topics like disordered eating, which is a very sensitive topic to begin with, and I'm sure that in general competitive spaces, not only PO dance, but in.

Figure skaters are advanced ballet dancers. It's quite common to see that practice in those spaces. So I think we should be mindful of that as well in research. So, yeah. 

Rosy: Yeah, absolutely. Which I think, not specifically talking about disorder eating, but talking about the, some of the things that you discussed with your participants.

Let's dive into your findings. So we talked about your participants. I think you had 20, if I recall correctly.

Yeah, that's correct.

And you did these interviews, and [00:22:00] then you looked at the interview data and you pulled out these themes that were common across your participants, but didn't seem, but also seemed to be specific to the population you were looking at. What were you finding?

What were some of your themes? What were the things that came up over and over again? 

Nadia: Yeah, so I think because it's such a lengthy result, I will just go through the themes one by one, 

Rosy: absolutely. 

Nadia: Yeah. So the first theme that popped up was about body functionality, like I said earlier.

So this theme just explains women's experiences about rec reconciling concerns about. Their physique, their physical appearance by emphasizing what their body can do as a pole dancer. So women do recognize that, values like leanness and strength were very beneficial for competition in terms of just helping you maneuver into tricks [00:23:00] easily.

You know, making things look aesthetic and more powerful, but it's not absolutely necessary, and it's more about how you can control your body and how you carry it through your routine. And I think one of the things I asked in the interview was if they think there's an ideal body for a competitive pole dancer.

And I can't get into the statistics, but mostly women said that there isn't. And it's more about what you're capable of doing and if you are just accomplishing your own goals out of the competition. And, women also gained a sense of athleticism out of this. So that's what makes them feel good about their bodies rather than how they appear to other people.

And within this theme, women also appraised clothing and competition in practical ways. So in a sense they're redefining, attire from an aesthetic perspective into a more functional [00:24:00] perspective. So they're not thinking like, oh, wearing minimal clothing would make me feel exposed and I feel insecure.

But it's more about setting that mindset into, oh wearing minimal clothing helps me grip the pole better and help me become exposed to different points of. Contact or grip which helps in competition if you're doing a lot of tricks. And also the topic of food is also being redefined as something functional.

So some women who have histories of disordered eating we're able to shift their outlook of food as being fuel for your body. So they're engaging more intuitive practices for that. But I do wanna highlight that, you know, this wasn't something I was aware of initially, but some women have to engage in diet functional diets.

So by that I mean [00:25:00] their dieting and not for appearance purposes. But, you know, I think one participant, participant mentioned some foods cause them to be more sweaty. And then that would, you know, not help with the grip and your performance. So they would have to be mindful of that.

And that is a risk for, you know being, again, becoming preoccupied with your physical appearance because dieting culture is very. It's very tricky and I think that's where we do see some concerns about appearance starting to emerge. That is the first theme.

Is it okay if I go through the second or do you have any comments Good 

for thought?

Just 

Rosy: like a quick sidebar. I think I mentioned this on the podcast before. One thing that will make you sweat more is caffeine, but it can also help you increase effort and output.

So yeah, me, I think really up to the individual.

And also I think something that really, really stuck out to me [00:26:00] is when we are talking about functionality, what we are deciding is a high level of functionality is very cultural, right? So like the idea that being able to do very physically challenged things is what makes you a good pole dancer. That that is what high functionality looks like. As opposed to thinking about maybe quality of movement which might not require, you know, a high degree of flexibility or strength, but would require like a great degree of body awareness and proprioception.

Like it, it's very cultural. What a very functional body means and what functions we expect. We expect different things from sumo wrestler and a rhythmic gymnast.

So even if we are shifting our viewpoint, even if we do see this effect of shifting of viewpoint from, I'm talking to pole dancers here, even if we are shifting our viewpoint from like, oh, my body should look a certain way to, oh, my body should move a certain way.

There's nothing inherent about this is the thing that genuinely makes a good pole dancer and is the core of [00:27:00] it. And there's nothing changeable about it that is gonna come from your expectations of the social group. And you are always welcome to challenge that, right? Like you as a dancer get to decide what being very functional looks like.

And it may not look like I'm working on the most extreme tricks. It may look like I just wanna be able to move and feel good. Obviously in competition you are being judged on specific things and the specific things that we are choosing to judge in competition is again, a cultural choice.

There's nothing inherent about this has to be the thing.

Nadia: Yeah, 

there sidebar, getting back to it.

Yeah. Yeah. That also reminded me about, you know, how people deal with. The judging criteria as well. I don't think that was really much explored in my research, but I do remember some participants mentioning that, oh, after competition.

I don't look at my score or my, what feedback I've gotten, because it won't help me. You know, like I just, you know, they, they've mentioned that they. [00:28:00] Do just wanna align themselves with their own goals and, emphasize fun in the competition. I know it's a serious thing to be engaged in, but it's important to kind of explore that side as well.

But anyways related to, yeah, related to, community. This is the second theme I'm gonna explore, which basically highlights how women feel nurtured and also feel tensions around a sense of belonging in the competitive pro space. So there are pros and cons in this. So the pros are that women do feel it is a very supportive space for, improving your body confidence.

And instructors specifically were very important in inspiring that idea. So they do emphasize that it is a space that celebrates milestones related to how you move your body, regardless of what it looks like I [00:29:00] guess that also in a way inspired peers and a training space and being supportive of one another's success even though it might be different.

And as a sidebar physical environments also shape how you feel about your body. So it was very interesting because some women prefer training in dimmed or colored lighting because it helps them just feel better about themselves and kind of distract or mute down any.

Insecurities that they have about their body. Whereas you know, in a more natural lighting space you it's something that will be really exposed. But some po dancer do find that tuning in a natural space with natural lighting, it helps them I guess become. Desensitized to you know, "body flaws" that they have.

And just focus better on exploring different tricks that they can put [00:30:00] into competition. And again, that emphasizes you know, pro training and competing safely which is very important.

You do see cons in this topic because you do see a lot of body comparisons happening amongst competitors.

So I guess I'm gonna explain what upward comparison means. So that just means your. Comparing yourself with someone who you think has a better skillset than you. So often women still compare with other competitors who seem to have a more solid dancing background. So these are people who maybe have had years of dancing experience and, you know, perform tricks, more flexibility and make things flow better.

So that does inspire a lot of, insecurities and, feeling conscious about yourself. Performing in a space that is very [00:31:00] public causes a lot of the stress in the sense that you are more wary of what the audience are thinking about you.

Someone said that looking at facial expressions from an audience will, cause 'em to feel a bit just conscious about their bodies. And there are also things about subtle practices that uphold this idea of traditional femininity.

In our study a lot of these women are heterosexual and there's just a minority of women who identify as being more masculine or have a more transgressive identity, but they do find that, for instance there's a practice of shaving your body hair for competition. And they would question their sense of belonging because of that.

So I think that's also important. And the role of documentation is a really interesting finding because you get [00:32:00] a lot of photos and videos after a competition women use that to reflect on their self-image and how they feel about their bodies even affecting them in daily life.

So, for instance, if someone were to experience a lot of body insecurities and outside of pole. They reminisce on photos on their competition and you know, it displayed, you know a level of success. They find that it helps them navigate those moments of, I guess, negative body image.

But if you are looking at photos where you know your angles might be awkward or you are not pointing your toes or things like that, it evokes a lot of negative self-evaluation and they start to question if they are, I guess, embodying a successful old dancer in the competitive space.

Rosy: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, this is something I think about a lot as an instructor, but also someone who's like creating a studio [00:33:00] space, right? Because I'm, trying to be very intentional about the type of community that I create. And a couple things you brought up so.

Some of the specific things that you brought up, like sense of observing yourself you know, feelings of comparison are really like hallmarks of the opposite of being in a flow state, right? From, from psychology, I have a podcast on it where I go deeper into she sends me ice work.

But really. Constant evaluation, even if it is evaluation of ability rather than evaluation of, body shape specifically. Mm-hmm. Is very far from that, that flow state that I think a lot of dancers enjoy being in because pleasure is, is one of the, the qualities of it.

And then the other thing that you brought up that I, I think a lot about is this celebration of movement milestones and this expectation of movement milestones, right? And that like progress looks like being able to do more tricks and. I think there's probably like unavoidable survivorship bias here, right?

Because someone [00:34:00] who like has a really hard time learning trics probably is not going to be competing right? Or someone who doesn't feel like they are already successful to a certain degree, isn't going to put themselves in a situation to be publicly evaluated. And also. If they, let's say, have an injury become disabled.

I think it's very common for when people have, have children to come back to movement afterwards. If they do come back to movement afterwards. Yeah, with very different feelings in their bodies, very different abilities.

On the one hand, I think it is very positive to move towards a more neutral view of body shape. Right? And just be like, Hey, bodies are different. My body's the way it is. Let's chill. I think that can be a very healthy place to be in your relationship with your physical state. On the other hand, if you've just sort of like. Swapped and you're like, instead I'm like, my body's chill because I can do skills X, Y, and Z.

When you lose those abilities because. You know, we will all become disabled at some point if we live long enough. That's just, just how [00:35:00] bodies work. What happens to your identity then?

What happens to your positive self regard? If it is completely tied to abilities, and especially if it's completely tied to abilities that are extreme range of like human ability, that you're not gonna be able to keep up, right? Like thinking about like rainbow chenko. Unless you are training like professional levels of contortion training every day, you're not gonna be able to maintain that skill.

That's not a thing that human bodies can just like. Bust out on the subway for most people.

Hmm. But it is something that I think a lot about and that I do worry that if what a community celebrates about you is what you can do when you can no longer do those things. Exactly, which is coming for all of us. What then? 

Nadia: Exactly, and I think that was one of the points I wrote for, you know, possibility for future research to think about is, you know, in the context of injury, if you are so focused on what you're able to do in the sport you know, what happens if that is taken away from you?

And [00:36:00] I guess it's. I'm disagreeing with you, like moving from a focus on aesthetics and physical appearance and moving that to, you know, functionality. Although that may be good, I don't think. It's healthy if you are using that as a source of comparison. And I just worry if, you know, we're emphasizing that space for people who may have different levels of physical abilities.

What, what happens, you know, what happens there? It's a very challenging thing to think about, but I think we should consider that. 

Rosy: Yeah. And I think, something that we can do as members of the Pole dance community is make sure that we're not only extending belonging to people based on their abilities, but based on their shared interests their shared values. I think that's a place that we all just as movers can start, right? If you're only celebrating a very specific type of body, moving in [00:37:00] a very specific type of way, even if the thing that you're celebrating is the way they're moving and not the body itself.

Unfortunately those two things have now become, inextricably linked. And I think it's important to. Also just as artists, right? Like you want to be able to experience and enjoy more things receptively so that you can experience and enjoy more things productively. Right? You have gotta cross poleinate.

Nadia: Exactly. That's very true. And you know, having said that again, you have to, you're in a space where you are able to. I guess express your inner desires and put that in a more public sphere. And that is also my last point actually on the findings of my research. But it is about the feeling empowered through autonomy.

So how women felt about their bodies was largely shaped around. The theme of personal agency and choice. So the first point was that [00:38:00] women felt empowered because they were able to take control of their appearance. And that is what, is very interesting because of so many different costume guidelines and things like that.

Can be difficult for some people to balance expressing themselves with the limits of those guidelines. But what women found with were that they were able to express themselves to their own level of comfort. So if, you know, obviously accounting for grip contact, for example they still were able to find attires that either help them, conceal some parts they weren't really comfortable of exposing or if they felt like they wanted to, they could wear more minimal attire, for example. And some women even made their costumes from scratch, which I think is a very good example of autonomy and choice.

Mm-hmm. And interesting enough that also influenced [00:39:00] how they felt confident about their bodies in their everyday lives. So there were some women who, you know, felt more comfortable exposing themselves. In front of their partners in a bedroom setting, for example. And I guess it's that sense of turning, you know, vulnerability into something powerful.

But there's also the theme about, you know, being empowered due to a choice of expressing your body through movement so again, because there's a vast range of styles that you can compete in people felt empowered in different ways. So for most it could be, you know, they could embody sexual confidence because they're portray themselves more in a more central way.

And that was also that spilled over into their everyday life. So you know, sometimes they were using their knowledge about a sensual movement to leverage their intimate [00:40:00] relationships with their partner and explore that more in depth. That was interesting.

But it is also good to note that not all people feel that way.

So, you know, if you identify as someone asexual or you know, if there was a participant that mentioned because they. They were very frequently competing in more exotic genres. They felt desensitized to you know, the benefits of feeling empowered in that way. So they didn't really felt like that benefited them in a sexual way.

But there are also people who, wanted to portray other, inner emotions or desires that may be repressed internally. Whether it be something, emotional, like in contemporary pieces, for example. They do feel empowered, but in a more general sense and, despite having moments where they're [00:41:00] using sensual movements in the choreography. They don't necessarily feel like it's sexual. They just wanted to narrate something personal out of it. And, projecting that into a public space is very empowering. There's a lot of different layers of how you feel empowered.

And I think that's what is very cool to find out. 

Rosy: Yeah, absolutely. The reason I was looking over there when you, where you brought it up is I don't think it's gonna show up on screen 'cause the things kind fade, but autonomy is one of my studios values. And I think that Paul absolutely has the potential to really help build that in people.

I'm really excited to see this as a major theme. 

Nadia: Yeah, for sure. And I, yeah, I just think that, you know. I don't think it's explored about you know, the negative effects of functional comparison, but overall, I think that as long as they feel empowered in however they're portraying themselves and moving themselves with their own pace and their [00:42:00] own style and not, you know, sort of morphing it into someone else's piece or.

You just sort of projecting your own personality out of it, I think is very important and I think you can gain a lot of benefits from that. So, 

Rosy: yeah. I agree. I think the expression and the creativity is, particularly important and I mean one potential difference between competitive pole dancers and recreational pole dancers is that recreational pole dancers are often learning someone else's choreography.

I mean, I, I don't teach choreography. Autonomy is essential value of my studio. We only freestyle. Of course Taylor. But often if you're a recreational pole dancer, you'll only be learning other people's choreography. If you're a competitive pole dancer, you are either developing your choreography or it's a choreography that is being designed for you specifically by somebody that you're working with.

Or a little bit of both. Right. Call my Combi. Yeah. Which is is something I have helped people with in the past with putting together competition pieces and. I think that there is a greater degree of [00:43:00] creative self-expression in competition. If that is the place where you get to choose the movements that you are portraying.

And if that is something that you're not usually doing in, in a recreational pole class. So I can definitely see that being a draw and appeal and a benefit of the movement as well is to be able to really like, hone in on the things that you like the most. Especially if that's not something that's really being made space for in your, your broader pole.

Nadia: Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, on the point of like individuality and creativity, I think pole really is a space that affords that. Whether it be how you move or how you portray yourself, you know, compared to other, I guess, competitive sports that, you know, you have to wear a certain attire to compete and you know, there's a sense of uniformity and things like that.

You know, that can have some negative effects, I guess, on, how you're able to put yourself out there in competition. [00:44:00] And, you know those spaces are often where you feel most objectified especially if you're wearing something like form fitting or, very tight and very minimal.

But you know, because of the requirements for competition, you have to wear something minimal, you can't express yourself in different ways. And I think, very empowering. 

Rosy: Thank you. I think that's a lovely, a lovely note to end on. So this has been Nadia Ahadia talking about her research that is in the.

Psychology of sports Exercise is the journal. So definitely check that out if you are interested. And thank you everybody for joining in and listening and I hope you. Probably recognize at least some of your experiences reflected in this research and learn something and just have some more things to reflect on.

And Natalie, is there anything you wanna share or let people know about? I know you're, you're on Instagram if you'd like to share your handle. People wanna wanna go give you a follow. 

Nadia: Yeah, sure. [00:45:00] So it's still branding itself, so I'm just posting my own journey with Paul, but you can find me on Instagram at psychology.

I spell that out so it's easier to P-S-Y-C-H, P-O-L-E-O GY, that, I think that's correct. 

Rosy: Sounds right. Can, that's probably cool stuff. You can find it. 

Nadia: Sure. I'll send it out to you and you can maybe put it in a description box or anything like that. You can also email me if you wanna reach out at nadia ahadi at outlook com,

Rosy: great. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining, Nadia. Thank you so much, everybody for listening, and I'll see you next time.

Nadia: Bye. Thank