Neurodivergence and Pole with Psychologist Gabby Desmond
Dr. Rosy Boa hosts an episode of Science of Slink on neurodivergence and pole with neurodivergent psychologist and pole dancer Gabby Desmond. They define neurodivergence as a broad umbrella beyond autism and ADHD (including OCD, BPD, and learning disabilities like dyslexia) and discuss why neurodivergent people may be drawn to pole for its structure, predictability, community “parallel play,” and endless achievable challenges. They explore sensory processing and regulation through spinning, inversion, and aerial hammock, plus differences in interoception and pain that can affect conditioning, stretching, and injury risk. The conversation covers learning preferences (visual vs verbal cues), difficulties with right/left and choreography, managing ADHD/autistic boom-bust training cycles, focusing on core vocabulary over trick inflation, and using external cues and varied feedback to support motor learning. Gabby shares where to find her work at unfurlpsychology and on Instagram.
Where to find Gabby:
Unfurl psychology: https://www.unfurlpsychology.com.au/
Chapters:
00:00 Welcome and Introductions
02:11 What Neurodivergence Means
03:51 Why Pole Attracts ND Folks
06:30 Sensory Seeking and Spinning
11:41 Dyslexia and Learning Pole
15:35 Learning Styles and Flow
18:41 Boom Bust Training Cycles
24:05 Interoception and Pain
25:45 Stretching and Hypermobility
29:53 Learning Through Feedback
38:36 Failure and Self Efficacy
41:22 Why Pole Community Works
42:42 Wrap Up and Links
Transcript:
Rosy: [00:00:00] Welcome to Science of Slink, the evidence based pole podcast. It's me, your host, Dr. Rosy Boa, and this is a episode that has been a while in the, um, scheduling, I guess. Mostly it's been scheduling but also I think this is a topic that I know a lot of y'all who are members and students we talk a lot about and, uh, I think is also super relevant in the wider pole community, uh, and that is neurodivergence and pole.
And here to talk about it with me is neurodivergent psychologist Gabby Desmond, expert in brains. Uh, and also a pole dancer. Also relevant. Both those things. Yeah.
Gabby: Oui.
Rosy: So Gabby, would you like to, uh, yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, uh, what it means to, to do what you do and, uh, yeah, a little bit on your pole story as well.
Gabby: Yeah. As you introduced me really well, I'm Gabby. I'm a psychologist. I feel like I've been doing pole for five and a half years and I feel like it's something that's had... It got me through my degree, but also it has had a [00:01:00] really big impact on, I don't know, my life and how I show up. Um, and interestingly, I've started to attract a lot of clients who are also polers, so that's been really cool, 'cause I'm like, "I get it."
Rosy: Yeah, I, uh, when I was in grad school, I, I think that the old joke is like, "Oh, you're, you're pole dancing to pay your way through school." Uh, and I was- ... doing school to pay for my pole dancing classes. Um, uh, yes, I think, uh, I think a lot of grad students are drawn to pole, Yeah perhaps because we are used to being in pain. We're like, "Yeah, this seems normal."
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. This is fine. Yeah, 100... And also it's just, like, fun. It's so fun. I don't know about you, but it was, like, the first sport I got into that I was like, I tried it and I was like, "I wanna get better." Um, and having those small achievable goals were, yeah, so great.
Rosy: Yeah, definitely. And the sort of like the puzzle-y aspect and, uh, and the fact that there is something for somebody regardless of sort of their level of physical capacity. Like, if you're an [00:02:00] ex-Olympic gymnast, there's stuff for you to do. If you're like me and you had not worked out basically ever and walked into- Yeah
a pole studio, there's stuff for you to do. So, Yeah ... it's a, a big range. Yeah. But before we get too deep into it, uh, folks may not be familiar with this term neurodivergence, what it means to be neurodivergent. And I know also that this is something where different people will place different things under this umbrella.
So I'd love to hear, uh, when you say it, what do you mean? What is it? What is neurodivergence?
Gabby: Yeah, so neurodivergence is pretty much any brain type that is not neurotypical. Um, so that, it's a huge umbrella term, I guess like when people use it, they generally mean autism or ADHD, um, but it actually is any brain type that isn't neurotypical.
So it can also be OCD, it can also be like BPD, literally any other type of brain, like learning disabilities any type that isn't neurotypical. Primarily the people that I support are autistic or ADHDers. Um, yeah. That's the space that [00:03:00] I work in.
Rosy: Yeah, definitely. It's, because I am, I don't know that we've talked about this actually, uh, I'm dyslexic.
Uh, and for some people that's sort of like under the umbrella, uh, and for other people less so, and it's sort of like, you know, is this just... Anyway, dyslexia's also a, an umbrella in and of itself, right? It's a, a collection of symptoms rather than, uh, necessarily one single underlying, um, etiology? Is that the word I'm looking for? Cause.
Gabby: Yeah. Love that. We got there. Yeah, 100%. I would umbrella it underneath, um, but I feel like because ADHD and autism are like I feel like they're just really talked about at the moment. They're like very popular in media. I feel like a lot of the time when people say, "I'm neurodivergent," they usually will mean one of those two things.
Yeah.
Rosy: Yeah. And I think I mean this could also be sampling bias for me, but I've certainly noticed that, you know, at my studio, people I dance to, dance to, dance [00:04:00] with the sort of... If we're, we're looking at the population as a whole versus just like the pole dancers that I've hung out with the incidence of neurodivergence in the pole dancers that I've hung out with is statistically significantly higher, right?
It, it seems to be a, a concentrating factor. And it sounds like that's also been your experience.
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. There are so many ... I think it's like, we're like magnets for it, right? There's so many reasons for that, I think. But it's a really great sport to, um, become hyper-fixated on and just get obsessed with and wanna be there constantly.
There's always, like, a new challenge. You get to wear cute outfits. And everyone's so lovely. And so I think that it just it's a ... Oh, and also you are doing an activity where you're, like, you're focusing on your own thing, but you're also with other people, and that can be a really attractive feature of a sport for neurodivergent folk.
Yeah.
Rosy: Yeah, and especially in a, in a classroom setting. Um, I mean, [00:05:00] certainly for me, I have very structured classes. They're always the same. Yeah ... it's very predictable, and a part of that is, you know, one of my, my studio, studio values is inclusion. And having predictability and knowing what's gonna happen and knowing what happens next I found has been very supportive for, not just neurodivergent folks, but folks from a, a wide range of backgrounds who, who appreciate that.
Yeah ... and I do think it, it makes it easier if you know what to expect, if you know what's gonna happen. And also, like you mentioned, sort of the parallel play aspect of it, right? You're doing things with other people, but I mean, I, I teach online, and I don't ... Sometimes some of my students come to class together, very rarely, but, like, doubles is not gonna be on the table for the format- Yeah
that I'm teaching in. Um, so yeah, it is like you're, you're eyes on your own work, but you're, like, you're in community. It's not lonely. You have other people who you can, like, bounce stuff off of and you know, and, and share discussion about your, your shared interests with as well, which is really nice.
It's fun.
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. I think, yeah, as the parallel play or, like, the proximal connection element of it [00:06:00] is such a big thing. I think that's a, a reason why I love it so much as well. Like, A, yes, we have that structure. Every time you go in, it's the same thing. Generally, it's the same people. And you just get to know everyone through that.
But also being like, I have my thing to focus on, so if I can't think of anything to say, I can focus on the trick, and there's always something to say. "Oh, how hard is this trick? Wow, I really struggled with this one, but now it's so much easier." Like, there's always a conversation topic. It's awesome.
Rosy: Yeah. Another thing that, um, I'd be, be interested to hear sort of your, your professional opinion on this as a psychologist 'cause I... Okay big sort of sidebar here. Um, there are a lot of people in my life, my personal life, who are, who are neurodivergent. And one of the things that I know is talked about more, especially with autistic children, is desire for big physical stimulus.
Like I always think about like the, the Child Mangler, like the laundry thing where like there's two foam rollers and like, you know, the kid just sort of like pushes through it. Uh, and gets like really deep bodily pressure, [00:07:00] like a big, a big input, sensory input. Yeah. And pole can be a really big sensory input that you can get for yourself in your own house.
Um, right, like, uh, again, a lot of the people in my life, uh, really love roller coasters for much the same reason, getting that big sensory input. Much harder to have a roller coaster in your house. Um, yeah, so I'd really like to get, get your perspective on that and, uh, you know, d- to what degree is this something that's been studied? Is this something that's common in adults, or are there other sort of other things that would fall in this basket of of, of big sensory vestibular inputs that, that people might wanna play with?
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. That's so interesting. I feel like that is a really big element as well. When I think about this, I think about sensory processing.
So obviously, um, both, if we're thinking under the umbrella of autism and ADHD. Mm-hmm. Um, generally when we think about sensory processing, we're thinking more autistic leaning. But ADHDers also have sensory needs. They just kind of, are for different reasons, um, [00:08:00] and look a little bit different. Um, so for autistic people, a lot of their sensory seeking will be regulatory.
So we're doing it to like ease our nervous system or express joy. Yeah. Uh, however, with ADHD it is often it's, "I have so much energy, and I don't know what to do with it," and they need to like get that out and express it. So s- that's where sensory comes in for them. Or you have both, and you do it for all the reasons, and it's really hard to tease those things apart.
But when I think about this yes, I think spinning is a really big like vestibular regulator. And so being able to go on spin pole or even just spin yourself around, massive. Going upside down as well. And then in terms of like similar like regulation type things, brain. Um, a lot of the time I find a lot of people find hammock really regulating as well, like the sensory regulation and the vestibular of that.
Even just laying [00:09:00] in it and cuddling up, but like doing tricks as well, and the feeling of being supported by the material. I just think aerials is awesome. So good. Pole and aerials.
Rosy: It- it's, You said hammock, and then I, I'm not sure if- whose video's face is gonna show up in the, in the, the video podcast.
But like I made a face because we were- Yeah ... literally just talking about that in the coffee chat I was having with my members like this weekend, uh- Yeah ... about hammock. And like why it feels so good, and like how to get more of it, and how similar it was to pole in terms of like, making brains feel things.
So yeah.
Gabby: Hammock is so nice. You just feel so supported.
Yeah. I feel like with pole, um- For me personally, s- any spinning, obviously afterwards I'm like, "Whoa, the world's moving away from me." But in the moment, the spinning is great, and then being upside down has a really regulating effect on me, even if it's, like, just hanging upside down from, like, a lyra hoop or just hanging in a lay back.
Doing that while spinning, game changer. I really notice when I haven't [00:10:00] had that in a while.
Rosy: Yeah. Yeah, and I know that's something we've, uh ... I've talked about quite a bit with my students as well, especially if, inverting and spinning used to be very easy for you, and then, you know, bodies change, training schedules change, and it becomes harder, and, like, losing that sensation can be, can be really challenging.
Mm ... which is part of the reason why I think it's very helpful to have a lot of ways to get upside down. Like a, I love a basic chopper. I love a basic invert, big fan, but the bigger our toolbox is, the more ways we can have to get into those positions that we really like, that just, like, feel good even if, like, you know, for whatever reason right now, the strength's not there, the flexibility is not there.
Gabby: Yeah, absolutely. Even, like, I don't know what you would call it, but an angel or a jasmine, and just being able to go into, like, a outside leg hang from that, or a genie. Yeah, I think that's sometimes the only, um, thing that can be really rough about pole is I think people start and they're all about getting their invert, and that is great and awesome, but there's so many [00:11:00] other ways.
There doesn't have to be just one pathway, which is also something that's great about pole.
Rosy: Yeah, and I, I mean, I hope- hopefully no one who's listening is, is, you know, training in a, in a situation where they're being told there's only, like, one option, and you have to do, like, this very narrow set of things, and that's the only way you can properly do pole.
And if you are, like, I'm not saying don't train with that person, but worlds your oyster, man. Train with multiple people. I highly recommend it to everybody. I recommend it to my students, right? Like, I'm not the only person who knows how to teach pole, and in fact, there are things that I'm not gonna teach you as well somebody else will.
I do it myself, right? I, I work with multiple teachers. So, get- getting some variety can be really helpful.
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. This is something that you might relate to as a dyslexic person. But I'm curious, like, what ... Sorry to turn the tables on you and be like, "I'm curious." How do you find that that impacts your, like, learning style with pole?
Rosy: Yeah. I mean, I think the- Okay, so there's two big things here, I would say. Uh, [00:12:00] so one is I train very evenly. Uh, I train basically both sides of my body the same. And it is in part because I don't remember right? T- to me, in my brain, both sides are very similar in relation to myself. I have a much easier time with cardinal directions than I do with, like, person-oriented directions.
So sided things really... Like, even if I am doing a choreography, which is, that's the second thing I'm abou- about to talk about. Even though I'm doing a choreography I will do the choreography on both sides, and I'll, I'll switch it. So that's been a big thing for me, and if people are like, "Oh, use your right leg to do this," I'm like, "I'm picking a leg, man. I'm just picking one. We're going with it this run." Um, so right and left, very challenging for me. That's a big part of it.
And the other thing is, yeah, like I mentioned choreography. I find choreography very mentally challenging to hold in my brain, uh, because it's like, it's a long sequence of things, some of which are very similar.
Especially counts. Counts in choreography are very challenging for me. I'm much more likely to remember choreography if it's cued to specific things [00:13:00] in the music.
Gabby: Yeah ...
Rosy: and as a result, I teach and, uh, primarily do freestyle, uh, because that lets me find the movement and find the play and find the flow, uh, without having to also, like, turn on the language part of my brain that is like, okay, big list of words, which is how I'm remembering moves, right?
I'm remembering them as a list of words, and then going through the list in the right order.
Gabby: Yeah ...
Rosy: I do it sometimes. Like, I can tell it's good for me, and it's nice to try out other people's movement on my body, uh, but it is much more, um, mentally taxing than freestyle. And I know that's not true for everyone.
I know that for some people, choreography feels much easier and is much easier on their brain than freestyle. So I'd say those are the probably the two biggest things.
That and as a teacher, I struggle with names so badly, which is why it's lovely to teach on Zoom where people have their names on the box. It's a genuine, genuine challenge for me, and something that I have really struggled with my entire life, and probably gonna keep struggling with. [00:14:00] Um, something about names in my brain, they don't, they don't stick, unfortunately.
Gabby: That's so funny. I recently started instructing, and I said to my first group of girls, I was like, "I probably won't remember your name initially, but I will remember something about you, so give me a fun fact."
I remember you, I just d- probably won't remember your name.
Rosy: Yeah. Like I- ... I know you as a person, it's just, like, the label is just, like, smeared in my brain.
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. And I think that what you said about, like, like your learning style and having to it ha- being hard to hold things in your mi- like, hold the steps of a choreo in your mind, or hold the steps of a trick in your mind, or a combo.
Um, there's probably some overlap there with, like, uh, ADHDers as well. Generally, and something that I find as a AuDHDer is especially when I first started doing choreo, not only was I, like, a newborn gazelle and had no idea what I was doing and didn't feel stable, but also trying to have the executive functioning [00:15:00] skills to just, like, hold the steps in my mind enough to remember it and then do it, so challenging.
Really struggled with that. And I do feel like that's something that pole has been incredibly helpful for, and I'm like, "Oh, I get why they get kids to do dance now." It helps to build those executive functioning skills and helps you to start to remember how to put that together. Um, but I'm very much the same where I can't, I really struggle with hearing the music and then applying the movement.
I have to have, like, the cues in the music to go, "Oh, and I'm supposed to hit it at this point." Yeah, 100%. And often do you know what your learning style is?
Rosy: Yeah. Um, I have been told different things through the years, and I personally, as it stands, am not super convinced that they are stable.
But I do think it can be useful for people to think about different ways of providing information. Um- Yeah ... but yeah. I think in pole, if we were [00:16:00] doing it in sort of like the traditional learning style framework, which again, I'm like probably kinesthetic, because there is... When I am in my movement, I am non-verbal.
Um, like, when I really, I'm in a flow state, I'm just doing things, I'm connecting with the pole, I'm connecting with the music, uh, I might hear the lyrics of the music somewhat, but I am, like, my, my internal monologue is off. There are no words going, and usually I have, like, a spoken internal monologue, which again, not everyone does. There's individual variation here. But usually I have a spoken internal monologue, and when I'm really in my flow, it is off.
And that's also when I usually am able to discover new types of movement and new transitions and new ways of interacting with the pole which is not necessarily, like, receptive learning from someone else, but I would consider it a type of learning and exploration, so.
Yeah, what about you?
Gabby: Oh, I really like that. Well said. Um, yeah, I was so curious because- I think you're right. I don't think anyone's just one type of, like, has just one type of learning style, and I do think it also is, like, [00:17:00] varies and is flexible based on what we're doing. I'm someone who, like, has to watch you do it a million times, and I'll usually, like, stand there and look around the room and be like, "Okay, how's she doing it?
Okay, how's she doing it? How are they doing it?" And then I'll be able to apply it to my body. Whereas if s- if I would, like, close my eyes and have someone just talk me through a movement, nah. That's not gonna work for me. I loved it. So it sounds like a lot of your training is solo?
Rosy: Yeah, these days, these days. So folks who've m- know me in, in person would know this I have a, a family member who's immunosuppressed, so I'm not really training indoors, uh, with other people these days. So yep, mostly online, but live online with other people is really what I found my sweet spot is.
So I take online classes, uh, and I teach online classes and, uh, yeah. So alone together, put it that way. Yeah.
Gabby: I love that. That's a good balance. I feel like working up the initiation to train on your own would be really hard. So [00:18:00] having that, like, obviously it's joyful, but sometimes it's like, "Oh, I just can't be bothered."
And having, like, the energy of other people can be really, really helpful. Yeah, very impressive.
Rosy: And having it, a space on my calendar, right? I think that's ... And then protecting the time for it, I think is the really big thing that having live gives me. And, you know, not all my students come live, some of them do the, just do the recordings.
Um, but for those who do, having set time, set space, you know, we're gonna do it, you know, if you wanna come live, you gotta make it live is really, uh, really helpful for, for creating that structure and, and momentum.
Gabby: Yeah, I love that. How cool is the internet? I love that we can do everything online now.
Rosy: Yes. Um-
Gabby: Okay. Something I was thinking about as you were talking about that and, like, when I said, "Oh, I'm working up the initiation," is I think, like, neurotypicals would experience this too to some extent, but autistic and ADHDers often experience, like, boom-bust cycle. And I don't know if it's something that you've talked about or experience in, [00:19:00] when working with your students.
But often it'll be like, I'm absolutely obsessed with pole. It's all I can think about, it's all I wanna do. I'm there, like, seven days a week. It's like n- it's 90% of my life, it's 90% of my brain space. And that will happen for a number of weeks. And then sometimes we'll burn ourself out 'cause we've gone so hard.
Um, and then following that we have this big crash where it's like, I don't even wanna look at a pole and, or whatever we're doing. It could be work, it could be a creative project. That time goes past, we start to recharge, and then we're, we start to get back into pole or whatever we're doing. And we're so worried that we're gonna go back into the bust that we go s- head first back into the boom again.
Rosy: Yeah, and that's... I mean, I think that is less challenging with something like, um, I'm just gonna say board games, right? Yeah. Like something where there's not a physical component, but the real challenge with that is something where there is a physical component is potentially over-training, particularly if you're [00:20:00] going from not much to a lot.
Uh, and then when you take a break and it takes... So I think people tend to worry about deconditioning after skipping like a week, a couple classes. It takes a couple months to decondition. It's... And also when you come back to recondition, it's always gonna be faster the second time, right? The, the benefit, like there's a baseline benefit of permanent improvement of any physical activity that you do. So, um, I know that can be something that people really worry about.
But I do think that that can be a, a real struggle with folks who are in that sort of cycle because, your body's like, we can't do any more," and then you take a break. Losing your skin conditioning too, that sucks. That sucks so bad to come back and be like, "Ah, no, my sit hurts again."
"Goddammit." Yeah. Which I, I think again, because it's so physical, because when you take a longer break, any, a couple months when you come back it is harder. That is an additional layer of challenge there. Yeah, it's definitely something I've, I've seen.
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. It's definitely part of my experience.
I'm like, as you were [00:21:00] talking that through with the deconditioning, I remember I got my handspring for the first time, and I'd been working on it for so long. Finally got it, went away for a week and a half, came back, could not get it. Have not been able to consistently get it since. I can still do it every once in a while, but it's not in the brain anymore. We're gonna get it back. It's fine
Rosy: Yeah. The consistency is the challenge, right? Especially if it's like your, what's giving you dopamine is not really under your control, and it's like swinging a lot.
And you know, if you want your movement vocabulary to be consistent, your training should also be consistent. But also it's okay if you're not, 'cause like we said, there's so much in pole. If you're not handspringing, like I can't handspring uh believe me, if I sit down to like do my own training and work on things that I think are fun, I got a roster.
I got so many options. I could never train all the things that like I'm, I'm sort of interested in working on, in a even like a, a week of, you know, three-hour pole sessions. Like I just never get to everything. So I think it can be, it can be helpful when you have that situation where you've, you've been working towards something and then you [00:22:00] lose it to be like, "Okay, yes- It's - you know, I'm not gonna hang out with that friend for a while, but I got a whole bus of other friends over here who are like, 'Come on in.'"
Gabby: Yeah. "
Rosy: Remember spins? Spins are great."
Gabby: Yeah, it's good stuff. Yeah, 100%. And also like- When I'm in that kind of a funk, I like to go back and do the tricks that I find, I don't even have to think about anymore, 'cause then I'm like, "Remember when this was so hard?"
And it, like, brings that dopamine back. Or I'll do, like, a class that's a little bit of a lower level than where I'm at and I'm like, "I'm actually killing it. I just need to take a step back and get some perspective."
Rosy: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, a big thing in my own teaching is that my goal for people who train with me is for you to master a core pole vocabulary.
So there's a, a selection of tricks that I don't... The trick inflation, right? Like, when I, when I started pole in, let me check the math, almost 15 years ago, uh, one [00:23:00] fonji was the coolest thing a person could possibly do.
There are things that I would consider core movements that many other pole movements are based on.
And yeah, like you mentioned, something that you've really mastered, that's really in your body, that will be there for you, you know, if you take a little bit of a break, that you really... you understand the mechanical advantage so even if you lose some strength, you still have a body positioning that lets it happen.
And that also is what's gonna show up most easily in your freestyle, are gonna be the things that you know in your brain because you have done it in your body so many times that you can't miss, right? It's a, it's a- Yeah ... sure thing. You can absolutely believe in it, and that gives you the confidence to weave it into your freestyle.
So, yeah, I think that having a selection of things that you are working towards mastering, or even if you've mastered, you're still working on. Uh, and then, you know, icing on top, right? Fl- frills, extra. I like to call them the spicy options, right? The things that are, like, gonna be a little bit of a reach for everyone.
And, you know, having something to work towards, but then still having that core to work from.
Gabby: Yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, as you're talking, my brain is just, like, off-shooting to [00:24:00] all these different little things and I'm like, "I don't know where this is gonna fit in, but I really wanna talk about it."
Okay, one of them was from all the way back when we were talking about sits. You had mentioned the pain of sits and how it, like, you can get deconditioned. Something that I find so interesting, or, like, something that comes up a lot with the, with neurodivergent folk is, um, our interoception's a bit different.
So interoception, like the ability to notice what's happening in your body, both emotions and, like, physical sensations. Um, something with me is I, with pole never felt pain, like skin pain. So I could tell that it was uncomfortable, but I was never like, "Oh my God, it hurts so bad, I need to stop." It's never been something that I've noticed.
Even when my legs were, black and blue when I first started learning it wasn't something that my body registered as like, "This hurts." If anything, it was pleasant. Um, so that's something that I've had to remember when starting [00:25:00] to teach people things like, um, supermans and like, "This hurts people. We need to take it slow." Um, and that's something that can go either way with neurodivergent folk. And, like, it's part of the diagnostic criteria as well. Not that everyone has this, but that you may have this as a neurodivergent person. Being hyper, so, like, extra; or hypo, reduced; reaction to sensory stimulus, um, so pain in particular.
Um, so it kind of goes one, like, one of two ways. Either you're in there and you're like, "I don't feel anything. This is fine," which is awesome. Go you. Or it's completely the opposite and everything's really painful, and it really hurts, and you have to sort of, like, adapt a little bit or take it really slow.
Rosy: Yeah, I actually had that in my notes as, as something that I, I wanted to bring up, was the interoception, 'cause that's and the pain, absolutely part of it, but also, like, something that, uh, comes a lot, a lot for folks is stretching. Like, where should you feel stretching? Uh, [00:26:00] particularly because there's such a strong relationship between, um, you know, ADHD, autism, and hypermobility, right?
Which I, I don't actually think we know why. Uh, or at least the, the, you know, the research that I've seen has not been conclusive. Like, I don't think we know what that pathway is, but there is a connection there.
And if you're like, "Oh, you should feel a stretch," and you feel a dre- stretch, you know, in the joint itself as opposed to in the muscles around the joint, being able to, like, notice that that's what you're feeling, especially if you are starting with, you know, joints that are atypical to begin with. Um, and then B, you know, a, a different sense of, of interoception is really challenging and is something that I, I try to be really mindful of, uh, in my teaching, 'cause I I think a lot of flexibility teaching in particular is done very visually.
Like, this is the position, get into it. And you can absolutely, espec- especially if you're hypermobile, get into a position where you are not stretching your muscle, you're stretching your joints, you're stretching your tendons and ligaments. And those that's not the point of flexibility training.
That's, [00:27:00] th- they don't actually ... You don't need to stretch the ... You need to stretch the muscles.
Gabby: It's so funny you say that, because I have torn ... I'm not hypermobile at all, but I've torn my hands- hamstrings twice just stretching Yeah. 'Cause I didn't, I, I can't tell the difference. Like, I've ... It's very difficult for me, and it's gotten there since I tore it.
I d- I've done a little work on it. But it doesn't feel different to me to stretch, like, my joints versus my ligaments versus, like, my muscles. Um, so one time I was training for the splits and I ... It didn't hurt at all, and I snapped my hamstring, and I didn't feel anything, really. Um, I could just tell it was weaker.
And then, yeah, doing, like, pancake straddle sits and just leaning back and forward, it just snapped. Which is bizarre, but now I, I was also recording, so now I get to show people and be like, "Don't do this. Take it [00:28:00] easy."
Rosy: For the split stretch, were you doing a, a passive stretch?
Gabby: Yeah. So we were- Mm ... just, like, in doing four ... Like, and this was after I think my ... It was my third hour of training, so I wasn't cold or anything. Mm. It was right at the end of the class, and we were just doing, like, front split holds. And I didn't have a micro bend in my knee. My leg w- my front leg was straight, and so I lowered down.
And the, I think it tore, like, at almost at my glute. That sort of- Mm ... back of my leg area, 'cause there was too much strain in the leg, and I was so close to the floor at that point, and now I'm so far away.
Rosy: That is rough. I'm really sorry to hear that. As a, a ... I don't know. I guess just, like, as an instructor, my recommendation for you, all my hypermobile folks, you know exactly what I'm about to say 'cause I fucking tell you all the time.
Um, I'd recommend to p- an active split split stretch. So I, again, and my students will know this, um, we don't actually stretch splits crotch to ground ever. We always do them on our back with a, with an elevated butt. [00:29:00]
Gabby: Yeah. Yep. So, um, now if ... Whenever we do, I do middles training now, I'm, like, up against a wall with, or, like, with a band.
Rosy: Mm-hmm.
Gabby: So much better, and it's, it feels better.
Yeah. Yep. Um, but yeah, like, in terms of the interoception, didn't feel that anything was wrong. Didn't feel that I'd, um, done anything wrong. I just heard it. And yeah, it's, like, very similar. Obviously it's different 'cause that's an actual injury that I should have felt.
But yeah, when it comes to, like, grip points, legs feel nothing. Armpits, maybe I feel a little bit of discomfort, but yeah, I find that similar with other neurodivergent people where they experience the pain of pole a little bit differently.
Rosy: Yeah, it is, uh, it is interesting, and it's also something that, you know, obviously as, as an instructor, important to keep in mind that different people's bodies' experiences are gonna be different.
Yeah, and I'm, I'm wondering, when you're, when you're training, do you find like, a haptic feedback helpful at all? So if you're [00:30:00] like, "Okay, I'm going to be going, uh, let's say you were going to be going into a, uh, a teddy, right? And, uh, you're like, "Okay, I want the pole to be on..." I like to do teddy with my hip in front of the pole, and you're like, "Okay, I want the pole to be on my hip," and then you touch that place, and then you try to put the place that you touched on the pole.
Does that sort of, um, technique help you at all, or is it more helpful just to do it visually? Third question, do you train with a mirror?
Gabby: Hmm. So I feel like visually is best for me, but then again, I think I probably do do that without realizing I'm doing it. So, like, going, "Okay, this part needs to be touching the pole.
This part's touching the pole." But generally, I'll watch somebody else do it, pay close attention to their grip points or their... Like, where their body's aligned, and then I try and copy it. And yes, always train with a mirror Yes.
Rosy: [00:31:00] Yeah, uh, there's nothing wrong with that. I was just, I was just curious because it sounds like, um, the proprioceptive feedback is also just, like, a little bit less for you than it would be for other folks.
Gabby: Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm very much a, like, I watch and I copy.
Rosy: Yeah, that's interesting. It's good to know about yourself, right?
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. 100%. But watch, now I'm gonna go into the studio and be like, "Oh, actually I 100% do that. I just didn't realize that I did it."
Rosy: Yeah, yeah. It'd be interesting to hear what your, uh, what your results are, 'cause I'm you know, something that I'm- I'm thinking a lot about when I'm teaching is how, this is kind of a sidebar. I'm gonna go on the sidebar. Love a sidebar. So something that can be, uh, particularly helpful from the the motor learning literature, um, and I think it's especially helpful for neurodivergent people, eh, wrapping it back around, um, is instead of being like, "Okay, lift your arm," right?
Where your focus of attention is placing your body part in a specific position, which people with very advanced proprioceptive skills can do, [00:32:00] right? Like, highly trained dancers can do. Which is why it gets used a lot, 'cause it's just easier for the teacher. Instead of thinking about that, thinking instead about external things, right?
So instead of lift your arm, reach for something specific. Uh, right. Yeah. So reach for the corner of the room. Or something that I'll- I'll say a lot is you know, instead of if we're doing isometric exercises, uh, on our back for- for the back muscles, instead of saying, you know, "Push your arms down," I'll say, you know, "Push your elbows through the floor," to get, to get that activation where the- the thing that you're trying to focus on is something that's physical and outside of your body.
Which can be really, really helpful for building that sort of like proprioceptive feedback. And also I'm thinking about, like, haptic feedback. Obviously, I can give, like, verbal feedback and, like, look at people. If you're, if you're watching yourself back, if you're watching yourself in a mirror, if you're watching yourself on a phone, visual feedback can be very helpful.
Especially if you can do this in a, way that you're nice to yourself. If you can record yourself and review the footage and then, um, you know, think about it, that can be a really helpful training tool. [00:33:00] So I'm always thinking about, like, different types of feedback, what's gonna be helpful for other people.
Because of course I can't... Again, I'm teaching online, I can't come over and move your leg.
Gabby: Yeah. It's
Rosy: just not gonna happen, right? So, uh, that's off the table. What are some other ways that, uh, we can be supporting learners in, in a pole environment that are gonna be helpful for different people?
'Cause different people are gonna need different stuff. Yeah, so just something I'm thinking about, uh, all the time is, is different types of feedback, uh, and, uh, and how they can help with the motor learning process.
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. Definitely those cues are so helpful. As you're talking, and I know this takes us back a few steps, but brain I was thinking about when you were talking about choreo and how I was like, with tricks, I'm a very visual learner, right?
But with choreo I find it extremely difficult to look at someone and apply the way that their body is positioned to my own body. For some reason with tricks, that's great and easy. With dance, so challenging. So I'll look at someone and be like, it looks really hot on them, but I don't know... i'm also a very tall person, and, uh, a lot of [00:34:00] my instructors are not, um, which is so fine, but a lot of the time I'll be like, "How do I get it to look like that on me?"
And I think that particularly with dance, that's when I need, like, very specific information and cues like that. I cannot think of a single dance one. All I can think is pole. Pull the pole out of the ceiling. But like, I need, like, those little cues help or, like, telling me specifically where I need to put microbends or, um, just to make it look prettier.
Yeah, those kinds of cues are really helpful in that sort of environment.
Rosy: I also wonder, um Uh, I'm just curious about this. What is the most number of cues you can successfully hear and integrate in a, in a single pass?
Gabby: Oh, God, that's such a good question. In a single pass, maybe, like, max three. If somebody talks to me for too long about how to execute a trick, I'm like, "None of this [00:35:00] is going in."
And often I'll find, like, when I'm first ... And I think this is a pretty normal thing. When I'm first learning a trick, I need to try it a few times and almost start to get it before I can take in all that additional information around, like, how do we nail this? How do we make this look better? How do we strengthen it?
I need to be able to feel it in my body, and then I can apply, like, all that additional cueing, like, yumminess.
Rosy: Yeah, I think that is a, a, a really great point, right? Verbal feedback from an instructor is one type of feedback, but also, like, what does this feel like in my body is another very important type of feedback. Uh, and not sort of like overloading brains is, uh, really important.
Yeah. I think- Yeah ... unless I'm, like, watching someone do something and giving them cues in the m- specific moments that they need them, I think, yeah, two or three is absolute max. Uh, and even three would be for something that you have been working on for a while, you're already very familiar with. I know it's not a strength issue, I know it's not [00:36:00] a flexibility issue, I know it's not a coordination issue, I know you have the ability to put your body in the position, you just need to know, like, when and, like, in what quality to do it.
But even that- Yeah ... that's a big ask.
Gabby: 100%. And, like, again, as, like, a, a baby instructor, I'm trying to remember that as well. I was trying to teach I don't know if you would ... Like, fireman spins? Like, the really ... Yeah. Do you call it the same thing?
Rosy: Uh, yeah, I'd call that a fireman spin. Uh, I think I've heard it called firefly as well.
There's a US terminology and, uh, Australian terminology tends to be quite close in my experience. Okay. British terminology, pretty different. And then Canadian terminology's kind of its own thing,
Gabby: yeah. It's so interesting. Even just between studios, I'm sure it's the same there, but, like, I'll go to a different studio and they're like, "Do a martini."
And then I do what I see as a martini, and they're like, "No, that's not right." I'm like, "Oh, okay." But I was trying to teach a fireman spin last night, and just trying to with brand new, like, intro [00:37:00] girls. Yeah. Like, they'd had a few classes before this. And just trying to explain, like, hooking with the back of one leg and you, like, sweep it around, and you hook with the back of your foot, and then the other foot comes behind.
And I was like, "I'm giving you too many words. We just need to try it, and then you'll get what I mean." And then once they tried it they were like, "Oh, yeah, it does make sense now." I'm like, "Yeah, sorry. Should have talked less."
Rosy: I mean anyone who's taught pole I think has gone through that stage though, right?
Like, where we're like, "I, if I, if only I give every single perfect cue in the right order, everyone will magically get this perfectly, and I'll be the best teacher ever, and everyone's gonna feel amazing." Um, and, uh, getting to the point where you're like, "No, you gotta let people fail in interesting ways."
Yeah. That's, that's good for their brain, right? Like, that's what their brain needs to get to there. And, I am not comparing pole dancers to dogs, but are you familiar with shaping from animal training?
Yeah. Yeah. So shaping is, is this training technique where, like, when they do something kind of like it, you're like, "Yes, more of that."
And then they do something even more like it, [00:38:00] and you're like, "Yes, more of that." Right? And then the feedback is like y- it's like a vector, right? Like, you're moving towards something rather than, like, expecting, you know, the dog to immediately, like, roll over with, with no additional, um, information. I think- Yeah
sometimes, you know, too much, uh, information that's, like, also not sp- perhaps the specific information a specific student needs is, like, just like saying sit" to a dog that does not speak English. This dog doesn't know me. Yeah. Yeah, it, like, it, you want something it's gonna try, but it does, like, it doesn't- Right
have the background. It doesn't know, it doesn't know how to do the thing that you want it to do. Yeah.
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. I love that you said that. Something that I always say with pole is, like, this sounds so egotistical, but it, it's actually not. It's just avoidance. Pole's the first thing I've ever done that I wasn't just, like, immediately good at.
Generally because I would quit the things that I wasn't immediately good at, right? Like not because I'm just amazing at everything. But I think learning to not be good at something was actually a really good thing for me, and [00:39:00] to... It's the first time I've ever learned, like, I can fail at something and keep trying, and then I will actually get it, and that sounds bizarre, but I've general- genuinely never had that experience before, and it's been such a good thing for my brain, and it r- has really helped with that internal narrative of-
Rosy: Self-efficacy
Gabby: like, I can't do it. Yeah. Pardon?
Rosy: Self-efficacy perhaps?
Gabby: Yeah, 100%. And just being able to have that nar- narrative of like, "I can't do it yet." Big on the yet. Yeah, it's been so good.
Rosy: Yeah, and I think there can also be, a, a place as well for, like, maybe I'm never gonna be able to do that exact thing, right?
Is do I genuinely want the thing I've been told I should want, right? Or am I doing it 'cause I'm getting, like, external social pressure but I don't actually care that much about the thing itself? And if that's the case, you know, what can you do that is gonna make you happy, right? Like, if you're going to pole because what feels really great is spinning around, [00:40:00] and people are like, "All right, 10,000 climbs," and you're like, "That's not what I wanna do. Actually, I don't care. I only need one way to climb. I'm good. I'm done. Uh, and I want more spinny, spinny time." Learning that about yourself and being like, "I'm here to spinny, spinny, and I'm gonna learn some different spinny spinnies, and that what's what makes my brain happy," is also, like, a, a really helpful thing to be like, "Yeah, I could do that hard thing. I know that I could do that hard thing." Right? Like, if I was training every day, I could get an Iron X, sure. I don't care that much. It's not that important to me. I have other things I'd rather be doing.
Gabby: I'm just here to have a good time.
Rosy: Exactly.
Gabby: And I think that's something that can be really hard about for a lot of people, especially for people with different body shapes and sizes and different abilities.
Like, if we have disabilities or hypermobile bodies that are just not having it, um, sometimes having that, like, graded system can be really tough because they're like, "Well, you can't learn anything new until you've learned," I don't know, "how to do a yogini." And it's like, I say yogini 'cause that was something that I was stuck on for [00:41:00] ages, um, and hated, and was like, "Why do I need to learn this?
I don't even like it." Or handstands. I don't handstand. But it can be really limiting, and so it's really nice to have spaces now and classes where it's like just come in and do what you want to do rather than what you're being told you have to do in order to progress. Just have fun. It's a hobby.
Rosy: Yes. That's part of why I love freestyle so much is like, uh, you know, if I'm coming in and I'm like, "I wanna do a bunch of tricks today," I can do them in my freestyle. I don't usually, but if I wanted to, I could. And just being, being in charge of myself, right? And being in charge of my movement, and having a space where that's not only allowed but celebrated is so rare in our society, right?
Like, where can you go and genuinely move however you want and people will be chill with it? Yeah. That is a s- short list. That is a short list of places. Especially, like, where you can be with a variety of other people who you may not know super well, but, like, you know you're gonna be able to support each other and be like, "Yeah, [00:42:00] hell yeah.
I'm into it. I support you. Do what you're doing." It's, uh- Yeah ... it's special. I think it's one of the things that makes pole so special.
Gabby: Yeah, absolutely. And, like, I might have just been really, really lucky, but with the studios around me, I've been to quite a few of them, and everyone is so nice. I'm not
And I don't know if it's because there's, such a variety of people, or there are so many neurodivergent folk, but I've never walked into a room and had strangers just immediately be so sweet, and there's, like, this kinship immediately. It's really nice. It's such a good social space.
Low-demand social space.
Rosy: Pole is great.
Gabby: Pole is great, to summarize.
Rosy: Indeed. We're running low on time. I don't wanna, I don't wanna keep you too long. Uh, but if folks wanted to learn more, uh, you know, follow you, see what you're up to maybe work with you 'cause you are a psychologist where would they find out more about you?
Gabby: Yes. Um, so, uh, they could find me on my website, which is unfurlpsychology. [00:43:00] Unfurl like a leaf. So many people are like, "What are you saying?" Um, unfurlpsychology. Or Instagram, it's, like, the same username, unfurl.psychology.
Rosy: And that will be in the, in the description for folks who wanna, wanna check it out.
Thank you so much for joining me today, Gabby.
Gabby: Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I feel like we had a beautiful conversation that just went like, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. It was great.
Rosy: It was great. And I'm sure, uh, you know, uh, folks who are listening, if you have any comments, if any of this resonated with you, if you're like, "Ah, yeah," uh, or if you have something else you wanna share, you know, pop a comment wherever you listen to the podcast.
I'll get, I'll get a notification. I can go, go check it out and chitchat. Uh, and, uh, thanks so much for listening, and I look forward to chatting with you again very, very soon. Bye. Bye. All right.
